And Catholics are very clear, we do not believe anything that contradicts what we find in sacred Scripture. Married in 1976, the couple attended churches of several denominations along with some non-denominational churches. First Corinthians 15 talks about heavenly bodies and that Mary is given Well, I think what Steve was saying here is that, okay, well, Mary had an earthy body. So were not talking about translations of the Bible. And so if it doesnt contradict scripture, then it should be an issue between Catholics and Protestants of secondary importance, much like how people disagree about infant baptism. Although I first heard of Greg Koukl as an undergrad at Biola University in the mid 90s, we became good friends in the early 2000s as students in the M.A. All right. We see this in Psalm 69:25. We should only offer that to the father and the holy sacrifice of the mass. Enoch and Elijah would be an example. Dear catholic.com visitors: This Catholic Answers website, with all its free resources, is the worlds largest source of explanations for Catholic beliefs and practices. Were debating whether scripture contradicts it, and that has not been demonstrated here. That seems to be something that went without contention. So its irrelevant. Well, the Septuagint was a Greek translation that was finished around 134 BC. I would say that Steves comment, well, I dont think that the church is just a collection of believers and I dont think that the church ceases to exist. Okay. So since Jacob is referred to as the son of Isaac, and Reuben as the son of Jacob, then were they only children? He took his wife, but knew her not until she had born a son and he called his name Jesus. But the Greek word for until, eos, does not always entail a reversal of condition. Now Steve said that Matthew 1:25, and others have said this, based off the doctoral work of Eric [Svenson 00:26:02], that the Greek construction [foreign language 00:26:06] in this verse always demands a reversal of condition. So that doesnt take away from what an errancy is about, which is Scriptures specific affirmations related to what it affirms. The fact that this is used of Mary is very unusual. Massive thanks to those who support us at locals and on Patreon. Lets take a look here. So, if the greatest of those born before Christ wasnt constricted to accepting the canon Christie is defending, then we shouldnt be compelled to do the same, either. You can see him and others talk about this on the Reason and Theology Channel. Well, first of all, I want to thank you, Matt, for having me on, for hosting this debate and for all that, and for everyone affiliated with Pints with Aquinas. They would be sons from another marriage. As Christian evangelist and author Mike Gendron wrote, The most deceptive counterfeit is the one that most resembles the genuine article. The same is true with detecting a counterfeit Mary, by first studying the genuine Mary of God Scripture, which does not teach these much later Roman Catholic dogmas, but just the opposite that she was, past tense, the Virgin mother of our Lord who redeemed and delivered her from her sins and who died and will be, future tense, bodily resurrected when Jesus comes to catch up as church. In the Darby translation of the New Testament, where in second Thessalonians Chapter 2, when it talks about worshiping images and worshiping idols, it actually uses the word veneration and it literally can be translated worship. If you guys want, I just had a dialogue with Steve and Jeff on their channel. The Greek word translated until does not exclude normal marital conduct after Jesus birth. Okay. And this is what I did in the opening statement. Therefore when Mark 6:3 refers to Jesus brothers and sisters not honoring him, we know this refers to Jesus younger half siblings. So in Mark chapter one, verse 19, it says, James is the son of Zebedee, and it uses the Greek definite article. How do we know theyre brothers? Now in the Septuagint as well as in the New Testament, adelphos is used to talk about people who have the same father but different mothers. And so I think what I have shown is that all of these arguments that Steve has raised to try to show scripture contradicts the Marian Dogmas, it does no such thing. Verse eighteen describes the enemies of the righteous one, saying, If the righteous one is the son of God, God will help him and deliver him from the hand of his foes, which parallels the Jewish authorities taunts during Jesus crucifixion recorded in Matthew 27:43: He trusts in God; let God deliver him now, if he desires him; for he said, I am the Son of God.. For example, a Mormon dogma that says that Jesus is not God contradicts scripture explicitly, such as in John 20:28, when Thomas sees Jesus and calls him, My Lord and my God. Implicitly would be liberal Catholics and Protestants who condone abortion, which contradicts scripture stating that life begins at conception, and scripture condemns the shedding of innocent blood. But before we do that, I want to say thank you to our sponsor, Hallow. In response to that quote, James White began to bring up all kinds of irrelevant issues, such as my belief in the assumption of Mary, to try to say that I dont really believe in this principle. Sorry, let me go back a little bit here with this. Okay, you can start now. Scripture reveals Mary was a Virgin, but conflicts with her being a perpetual Virgin. Its a good Greek translation. And we can actually discern from others passages in scripture that Jesus brothers are his biological younger half siblings. Second Corinthians is clear, God made him who knew no sin to become sin for us. You talked a little about in Adam, all die, but notice here there are exceptions. So offering sacrifices to Mary would be idolatry. Prototokos, I dont have a problem with the term, meaning first out of the womb, but in Luke chapter two versus 22 to 23, this is a different event. Matthew 18:17 says, Jesus says, If a person who sins against you refuses to listen to you or two or three witnesses, tell it to the church. And it seems to envision the church as having some kind of authoritative structure and not simply as the invisible bond between all believers. Cyril of Jerusalem refers to Baruch as the prophet, cites Baruch 3:35-37 in defense of the deity of Christ and includes Baruch in the writings of Jeremiah in his list of the canon. The New Testament writers used it, but they did not use it universally for that reason. In fact, the Bible often speaks about things like human sinfulness or human mortality as a universal truth and those things really are universal, but it doesnt always mention the exceptions that do occur to these universal rules. Then after being assumed into heaven, she would have a glorified body. For example, Jesus said among those born of women none was greater than John the Baptist (Luke 7:28)and John was not a Pharisee. The Morning Ritual with Garret Lewis. In Luke 1:28, the angel uses it as a descriptor of Mary within a personal address, similar to how John the Baptist used the lamb of God to speak about Jesus, and that talks about the significance there. Professional career [ edit] Early career [ edit] ): 32 (3488th overall since 1960) High School: Trafalgar ( Canada ) 2 2 8 2 SUMMARY Career G 229 AV 45 FGM 336 FGA 431 XPM 468 XPA 473 Career Postseason 1990 1991 The Bible does describe a group of people as the brethren of the Lord but it doesnt say that these people were Jesuss biological siblings through Mary. and so this may not satisfy Trents answer and he might smirk a little bit about that, but Id say probably the first theologian to agree with me is the Apostle Paul. So this next question is for you, Steve. So does that mean that Mary could have had daughters because it says, the son of Mary? So this question comes from Mitchell Godfrey, and Im going to just change his question a little because he said he is not going to be watching live. He serves as a staff apologist for Catholic Answers, where he specializes in teaching Catholics to graciously and persuasively engage those who disagree with them. He says, Steve. And Id probably want to make Peter the rock of the church. Yeah. Christie, who grew up in Oakville, Ontario, graduated from The College of William and Mary and made his NFL debut with the Tampa Bay Buccaneers in 1990. So this first question is for both of you, well start with Trent and then Steve, this comes from Estaban. He had cancer and heart disease. EDWARD D. ANDREWS (AS in Criminal Justice, BS in Religion, MA in Biblical Studies, and MDiv in Theology) is CEO and President of Christian Publishing House. In order to justify that claim, Christie would have to present a standard that tells us what writings prior to Christ are inspired and why we should accept that particular standard. The son of Jonah? Sure. For more information, visit trenthornpodcast.com. [inaudible 01:23:43] This comes from supporter, Matt. I believe all things are possible with God. Man commits idolatry when he honors and reviews a creature in place of God. Give the person you disagree with a listen, really try to understand where theyre coming from because if after hearing their position, you still disagree with it, at least youll be better informed about what Protestants or Catholics believe so you can better engage them and resist the temptation to attack straw met. Finally, this debate is not about Marian doctrines or theological opinions about Mary. We use Christian Apologetics to discuss, interview, & debate for God's existence, & Christianity. Book now for free with CMG Booking. And most commentaries agree that this passage parallels what Hannah says in First Samuel 2:1, and she likewise doesnt mention sin. So youre going to agree it does not deny Mary was assumed into heaven? Well, not necessarily. Its a good question. As far as Jesus brothers and sisters, I probably have studied that more than anything else and that would probably be the hardest for me to accept or maybe Mary being sinless because I mean, Trent, you got a seven year old, its like is as good as a kid as he is based on who his parents are. If she is not righteous, then Jesus did not redeem her and she is still dead in her trespasses and sins. So I would say that James and Joseph are also the son of the sons of Joseph. An interview with Steve Baughman. Since this dogma allows for her to have died before being taken up to heaven, it contradicts the purpose of a biblical assumption. Im not sure. And in the Reformation, the two doctrines that came out of it was Sola Scriptura and Sola Fide. Finally, Christies Pharisee argument for the Protestant Old Testament canon fails because its logic can be used to make a similar argument for a completely different Old Testament canon. Thats what I believe. 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